(Editor’s note: Variety’s interview with Sony Interactive Entertainment CEOs Hermen Hulst and Hideaki Nishino took place on October 16, prior to PlayStation’s Tuesday announcement that Firewalk Studios and Neon Koi are being closed. SIE was unable to make the studio company CEO Hulst available for additional commentary or to clarify his previous comments about layoffs in this story before publication.)

This spring, Sony CEO Kenichiro Yoshida turned heads when he picked two PlayStation vets to lead Sony Interactive Entertainment: Hermen Hulst and Hideaki Nishino.

After all, having co-CEOs is a potential recipe for friction. In their first interview since taking on their new role in June, Nishino and Hulst speak with Variety about how their partnership works. They argue that the size of the company behind the “God of War” and “Spider-Man” franchises has grown, requiring two operations that each require specialized leadership: a platform company run by Nishino and a studio company led by Hulst.

“These are not co-CEOs; they are two CEOs for the company,” says Nishino. “Hermen runs his thing, I run my thing, and then we get together to talk about how we can grow the company.” Nishino acknowledges the tension inherent in the structure, but sees it as a healthy dynamic: “Growing the business for success also brings a conflict: how we influence each other or how we want to sacrifice or not. It’s a balance. It is both an opportunity and a risk.”

Hulst estimates that 80% of their daily time is spent managing their individual areas. “It’s really nice to have two developers at the helm. We both have engineering degrees; we’re both quite hands-on,” he says, adding: “There has to be enormous trust, and we’ve been working together for a long time.”

The two-in-a-box CEO arrangement is rare, but there are indications that the right duo can make it work. For example, in early 2023, Netflix installed dual CEOs to helm the streamer — and so far, Ted Sarandos and Greg Peters have overseen impressive growth and stock market highs.

Nishino became head of product at SIE (formerly SCE) in 2016 and headed the Platform Experience Group from 2021 until becoming CEO in 2024. Hulst came from his position as chief at ‘Horizon’ maker Guerrilla Games, which Sony acquired in 2005, and later became head of PlayStation Studios.

It’s an unpredictable time for PlayStation. SIE’s Bungie studio laid off more than 200 employees in July. In September, the company shut down its ‘Concord’ live services game two weeks after its launch on August 23, then shuttered studios Firewalk, the maker of ‘Concord’, and mobile-focused Neon Koi brand earlier this week. PlayStation also faced criticism for the $699 price tag for the PS5 Pro console, which is due out in November.

At the same time, PlayStation has received praise for its new platformer ‘Astro Bot’ and has rebuilt its reputation among fans with the announcement of the sequel to ‘Ghost of Tsushima’, ‘Ghost of Yōtei’. The division also has high hopes for season 2 of HBO’s megahit adaptation of PS game ‘The Last of Us’ and Amazon’s new ‘God of War’ series.

Hulst and Nishino have adopted a ‘show, don’t tell’ leadership style at PlayStation. “It is important that we communicate our strategy,” says Hulst. “But ultimately I spend a large part of the time with the makers.”

Nishino is on the same page: “For me, the product and the content should be the things that look to the future,” he says, adding self-effacingly: “Who is the guy doing this behind the scenes? It doesn’t matter.”

Read more from Variety‘s interview with Hulst and Nishino below.

Since the PS5 Pro is coming out very soon after we publish this story, I wanted to ask about the timing of that and what the actual next-gen device will be. Are you waiting for Nintendo to make the first move with a Switch 2 announcement before getting there? And what is the plan to roll out Pro and clarify who the product is for and who the actual next-generation device will be for?

Nishino: So we did Pro in the last generation. We learned a lot from that. When we sold PS4 Pro, 20% of customers actually got the PS4 Pro in addition to the PS4. It was high end, it was premium. So there are potential users who purchase these types of units. Interestingly, it wasn’t just about highly engaged users; actually new users also come to PlayStation to buy PS4 Pro. So we started working on PS5 Pro even before PS5 launched – it was another five-year project for us. So there was a conversation about whether we wanted to do another Pro or not. But the most important thing was that there are technologies that will allow us to reach maturity in three or five years. So, progress in innovation and technology is faster in a modern world. Phones are updated every year, PCs are updated every year. I don’t think we will provide updates every year, but there are things we can put together to bring the best things to the gaming console segment. So that is the vision.

I love seeing people talking about it. Like year three, the conversation around the gaming console tends to boil down to something, so people shift the conversation more to the next generation, or something like that. But we’re quite happy to see, like most committed gaming users are interested in the PS5 Pro, and I’m pretty sure new users will grab the PS5 Pro too. If it’s the PlayStation you want, then that’s the point. So that’s where we designed the generation right now. We design everything with one forward in mind. It’s not like we just take the next step and don’t know what the next two steps are. That is not our way of working, because we have to ensure that the ten-year generation cycle also continues.

How do you balance that on the development side: knowing when certain devices are going to be released and which titles you do or don’t want to announce? I’m really excited about “Ghost of Yōtei” next year, but I don’t feel like there’s any other really big ones you’ve announced yet that show it should be played on PS5 Pro. Are there any big title announcements coming soon related to Pro or next-gen?

Holly: We spend a lot of time on portfolio planning, and platform is a big part of that. So when we were doing our planning from the early stages of PlayStation 5, it was really important to get really high quality titles on PlayStation 5 right away. And that has served us well and given us the position of PlayStation 5 which is really, really good.

I think the other thing to say here is that the teams like to tinker with the hardware. They love the privilege of being involved with the hardware. And hardware consists not only of the boxes, but also of the peripherals. And teams like Team Asobi on ‘Astro Bot’, that team is a great example of the fact that, in addition to some schematics, they helped design the hardware features of the controller and made demos for it. And in some cases, these demos even evolve into an entire product that becomes a big product in its own right. So we are involved in that. We enjoy that immensely. Same with PS5 Pro. Both demos you saw are PlayStation Studios. Teams are very proud of that. Obviously we are involved in all hardware planning efforts. It’s very much that symbiosis from the hardware side, what can you do with it? And here’s the feedback, and can you make demonstrations for it? And all to inspire third parties, which is obviously a huge source of revenue for the company, to inspire what you can do and what the quality bar is for these short showcases. That’s always been part of what PlayStation studios do, and it always will be. And that’s in addition to finding the additional revenue streams or opportunities that we can leverage in film and television and merchandise and location-based entertainment and whatever.

Nishino: I just wanted to say that the Pro is not next generation. It’s still in the PS5 generation. PS5 Pro will do everything PS5 does. So it is a consumer choice. If they see a need for more visuality, they will get it. So we wanted to give the consumer an option within the generation, that’s what we do.

When it comes to the customization side, which has clearly been on the rise at PlayStation over the years, with Season 2 of “The Last of Us” – possibly Season 3 after that? – and the TV shows ‘God of War’ and ‘Horizon’ in the works. Where are those projects now? And on the gaming side, are you looking at releasing new games in those franchises in addition to those shows?

Holly: The HBO series “The Last of Us” has been a game changer when it comes to the credibility of game-to-TV series adaptations. We learned a lot from that. We’ve learned that it’s very important to involve the original creators to ensure your experience remains highly authentic. As teams stay engaged, we apply these types of lessons across the board. At PlayStation Productions, there are now ten productions in the works: “The Last of Us”, “Twisted Metal”, and a few others that we are very excited about. I think we will become more and more careful and rigorous in our franchising in the future. So we’re talking about adjustments, but adjustments are taking the game and seeing what else you can do with it. We really want to build from the ground up – like we originally tried to do with “Horizon,” in creating this world and creating this storyline – and how do you tell stories in this world across different mediums? And so we’re creating franchise teams and portfolio management teams to work with teams to do that the right way and find different ways to tell stories in the worlds that we create.

You all went through layoffs earlier this year, similar to the layoffs that hit the entire gaming industry in 2024. But Microsoft recently had new ones, you all took ‘Concord’ offline and there were extra cuts at Bungie. What is the current outlook for PlayStation and the expectations of studios and games that will be closed in the future?

Holly: I’ll say a few things about that. It is our duty to look at our resource planning and ensure that we are running a sustainable business. That’s part of being a CEO. We never take that lightly, because we know these people personally, and it is close to our hearts, the teams and the good working atmosphere. But yes, we have had some layoffs. But it’s also important to realize that PlayStation Studios is now a much bigger organization in terms of content than when it started. It has grown enormously. And that’s organic growth that our existing teams, I think, have hired quite aggressively, but also through mergers and acquisitions. So the organization and employment are now much greater than, for example, five years ago.